The world-famous scientist became a guest of the “Scientific Environment” program on the radio “Komsomolskaya Pravda in Kaliningrad”
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About the meeting with Tchaikovsky
- Speaking from the point of view of the science to which you devoted your life, to what extent? Does modern man now have difficulty understanding himself?
Man, from the moment he appeared on the planet, has experienced such difficulties. And he has no chance to stop doing it.
- It should be?
How it should be, the Lord decides, and he does not tell us. But we see that over the millennia, the situation is not improving. If you read ancient authors - European and Eastern, you will see that the problems are absolutely the same.
- What then is the progress of humanity?
But I don’t see the progress of humanity. I see regression.
- What is he wearing?
Have you met Aristotle, Plato, Shakespeare, Mozart, Tchaikovsky and so on in your life?
- Unfortunately, but no.
So I don't. And this is the answer.
- But have you met worthy people?
Worthy - yes. But I have never met geniuses of the caliber of those I listed. And I suspect that I will not meet.
- But don’t you think that geniuses are recognized after many years?
May be. Then our descendants, say, 300 years later, will discover that “Fyodor Fedorov and Fedorov” was a genius. But there is no point in talking about this, because we know nothing about it.
- Who knows?
- What then is the meaning of the scientific study of man?
The point is that we are interested in doing this. To me and most of my colleagues from the strong. That's all.
“A long skirt is no worse than a short one”
- In one of your interviews you said that the IQ test is complete nonsense.
Well, it's not nonsense, that's just how I usually express myself. But it, of course, is not an indicator of the strength of the intellect. He is one of his features. Namely, the ability to logically draw conclusions, remember something, and so on. In this case, the computer has the highest IQ. Just don’t see a computer writing the 40th symphony or War and Peace.
- So, modern science has no way to measure genius?
Genius cannot be measured at all because it is a very rare phenomenon. And a genius can only be born. You can't become one.
- What does it depend on?
From genes. And it happens on its own. So the genes “walk, walk, walk,” converge and a genius is born. And nothing can be done about it.
- Has science studied the IQ of geniuses?
Science studies a lot of things. Including geniuses. But there is a huge amount of literature devoted to studying the price that geniuses paid for their genius. It is very high because there were practically no healthy people among them. Many committed suicide, many became drunkards. Many had severe depression. All humanity pays a high price for genius.
- In this case, the majority of people with average indicators is quite justified?
As in any population, the bulk of someone is always more or less average. But not in the sense that it is bad, but statistically. And this is the norm - a matter of agreement. Fashion is a good example, because a long skirt is no better or worse than a short one, 48 braids are no better or worse than one. Any norm is a conditional agreement. Like in medicine, for example. You receive test results and it says “from and to.” And this indicates the norm: most people have red blood cells, for example, in such and such quantities. And this is not bad, not good, but simply a fact. Therefore, there are a huge number of ordinary people. Of this number, there are deviations towards those who are underdeveloped and have all sorts of pathologies. And then we say that they are unhealthy. But such people are no worse than others, because they are not to blame for what happened. And there is another layer - with outstanding abilities. There are very few of them, and there have always been few. And the successes of our civilization “are located” there. Therefore, when we look at a brilliant musician and say that he is somehow unscrupulous, be aware that he may be Mozart. We want everyone to be healthy, but then there will be no Mozarts. Einstein was generally considered underdeveloped, and if he had taken IQ tests, he would most likely have scored low. And none of the people I listed would have passed the Unified State Exam! Pushkin is a loser, a provocateur, a hooligan, a drunkard. But this has nothing to do with the fact that he is an absolute solar genius.
- Why not then agree that such people are the norm?
The norm is the majority. And we can announce whatever you want. Well, let's decide that the norm IQ is 260. And how many such people will we recruit? Not at all. This is not addressed in a prescriptive manner. You can agree on a norm based on what already exists. It is known that the Japanese, when they started a different diet, grew almost ten centimeters in a very small number of years, which in itself is phenomenal. This means that their norm has changed. Not because the emperor decided so, but because they simply grew up. Do you remember how last year you were forced to change the number of Unified State Examination points in the Russian language and lower the bar? This is it: “Let's change the norm!” No one can pass the exam, so let's lower the bar to such a level that every chicken can pass it.
About the disease of society
- In your opinion, is this norm normal?
Of course no. But it’s just not clear what to do about it. And this is a very difficult question, but my answer is to raise very good teachers who would truly teach children. They shouldn’t complain to them about their low salaries and that they have to bother with them. In any self-respecting country, such a teacher would lose his job. Because his words are inherently unthinkable. And this happens en masse, even in fairly strong schools. Which says something about our society, how seriously ill it is.
- Is it possible for him to be cured?
Well, how? Let's dream?! Everyone says we need good teachers. Where can I get them?.. If you haven’t received a good education, then you won’t get everything: it won’t be able to arise. This is a lot of work, hard. People who study in strong schools work like crazy, around the clock. Or, for example, a person who works at a factory or in some company comes home at six o’clock in the evening, sits down in front of the TV and he is free: he forgets to even think about what happened at work. But this never happens to me! Never. And all my friends. Because we live a different life. For me, work is not a punishment. For me, the punishment is bureaucracy and all this insanity in which I stew around the clock. But when I come home and find myself among my books, with my computer, manuscripts, and so on, I’m ready to work as many hours as I want. After all, this is exactly what I like to do in life.
- But this is the norm for you and your environment? It turns out that each group of people has its own norms?
I want to upset you, but each person has his own world. Without exception. And they are all different. No worse, no better. Different! Worlds are woven from everything: the air they breathe, the books they read, parents, friends, and so on. Even depending on what your psychophysical type is - depressant, hysterical... The norm is the boundary that we agree on: we somehow have to live side by side. I can’t imagine myself eating pickled cockroaches, but they eat them in abundance in Hong Kong, for example, and enjoy them. I don’t tell them that this is very bad on their part, although I think so myself. And they feel bad about what I eat, some kind of Maasdam cheese...
- Ha, about cheese is not a very popular topic now...
Why? Everything is made here! When I come to the store, and I’m a terrible cheese lover, I think, where are these sanctions?! A huge number of cheeses.
- What about the taste?
Many cheeses are very decent. I think that the solution lies in joint production: serious cheese makers from Europe brought starter cultures and other ingredients, and make cheese in the Moscow region. And this is not a violation of the law.
“I can’t live without feasts”
Well, since our conversation has taken on a culinary tone, let's talk about what you like to cook. And do you cook?
Yes I love cooking. And I can. I am modest and shy, so I speak directly (laughs). I can cook a lot of things. I’d rather say that I don’t know how. I can't handle yeast dough. We have a bad relationship. But it only lets me in once a year - at Easter. And then I bake real Easter cakes according to my grandmother’s recipe: I don’t demean myself to buy them. Baking Easter cakes is a lot of work, physically difficult, serious work. But it's a matter of honor.
- Is there a signature dish for which your family gathers at the table?
Well, first of all, my family - my husband - cooks better than me. And we have arguments not on the topic of what one cooks because the other doesn’t want to do it, but on the contrary - who will cook. This is an important part of our life - family lunches and dinners. Every day!
- Do you have time to have dinner together?
Yes, we have time, and we definitely do it with wine. Properly. I really set the table: there can be no oilcloth - only a tablecloth. Glasses, all cutlery. I've been doing this my whole life and don't plan to change anything. It is very important.
- How?
Aesthetically important, I am a gourmet, I enjoy eating delicious food. I understand something about wines, I enjoy drinking them. I enjoy sitting with my loved ones at the table and talking. This is a very important thing about the hearth. I am sure that a person who does not take this seriously will not take a serious step in other situations.
- It turns out that the norm of family values does not change?
It doesn't change because we don't want to change it. But there are a lot of people who changed it. When I went to America, I was amazed that they never have a big family feast. When someone got up, he put something in his mouth and ate it as he walked. Of course, there are different families, but I met these. In New York, I observed only soda and ice in the refrigerators of the families of the intellectual elite. And no food at all! But I can’t live without her, and I don’t want to live without our feasts. This is how the question stands.
- What else makes you feel good in your family?
I feel good when everyone is healthy, of course. When I feel that there is no internal anxiety and tension in people. And I want them to be happy with me.
- What makes your family happy?
Oh, I can’t answer that... I think because we’re together?! Don't know. Can not answer.
- Is the question of happiness so complicated?
Of course.
- Is happiness included in the norm?
No. Happiness is a desired thing. But everyone has their own desires. For some it’s a new Mercedes, for others it’s peace when he sits under a linden tree and draws something with a pencil. Agree, completely different things?! Happiness has nothing to do with the norm at all. This is completely different.
FROM THE KP DOSSIER
Tatyana Vladimirovna Chernigovskaya
Russian scientist in the field of neuroscience and psycholinguistics, as well as theory of consciousness.
She graduated from the Department of English Philology, Faculty of Philology, Leningrad State University. In 1977 she defended her candidate's dissertation, and in 1993 - her doctoral dissertation.
On her initiative, in 2000, the educational specialization “Psycholinguistics” was opened for the first time at the Department of General Linguistics, Faculty of Philology, St. Petersburg State University.
He gives courses “Psycholinguistics”, “Neurolinguistics” and “Cognitive Processes and the Brain” for undergraduate and graduate students of the philological and medical faculties of St. Petersburg State University, the Smolny Institute of Liberal Arts and Sciences, as well as for graduate students of the European University in St. Petersburg. She has repeatedly been a guest lecturer at major universities in the USA and Europe, and coordinator of international symposia.
She hosted a series of television programs on the channel “Starry Sky of Thinking”, “Let’s Show a Mirror to Nature...” (channel “Culture”), “Night”, section “Intelligence” (St. Petersburg - Channel Five).
In 2006 she was elected a foreign member of the Norwegian Academy of Sciences.
On January 9, 2010, by decree of the President of the Russian Federation, Chernigovskaya was awarded the honorary title “Honored Scientist of the Russian Federation.”
Neurolinguist and professor at St. Petersburg State University Tatyana Chernigovskaya, at the Lakhta View session, argued why men are smarter than women and made a truly St. Petersburg analogy about the number of connections in the brain. Diana Smolyakova recorded the main points of her lecture for the online publication “Dog”.The brain that remembers everything
Regulating the flow of incoming information is impossible - or at least very difficult. I don’t know what humanity should do about this, but we are clearly overloaded. And this is not a question of memory, there is enough space in the brain for everything you want. They even tried to count - the last count that I found out makes me skeptical and boils down to the following: if you watch “House 2” for three hundred years without a break, the memory will still not be filled, such large volumes! Don't worry that it won't fit there. Everything can collapse not due to volume, but due to network overload. A short circuit will occur. But this is just a crude joke. I regulate the information flow with great effort: I don’t turn on the TV, I don’t surf the Internet. People say that they write a lot about me on the Internet: but I’ll note right away that not only do I not publish anything there, but I don’t even read it.
Men are smarter than women
As I heard, I am accused of sexism online. And let me tell you - sexism in its purest form - men are smarter than women. Smart men. Women are much more average. I'm an expert, I know. And I say without a single regret: for some reason I haven’t seen women like Mozarts, Einsteins, Leonardos, there isn’t even a decent female chef! But if a man is a fool, you won’t meet a dumber one. But if you are smart, then you can’t be like a woman. This is a serious thing - extremes. A woman should protect her family and offspring, and not play with these toys.
It's not me, it's my brain
Each of us seems to have free will. This is a difficult conversation, but I invite you to think about it. We hope that we have intelligence, consciousness, will and that we are the authors of our actions. Harvard University psychology professor Daniel Wegner in his book “The Brain’s Best Joke” says a terrible thing: that the brain makes decisions itself and sends us a psychotherapeutic signal - like, don’t worry, everything is fine, you decided everything yourself. God forbid he's right! There have already been trials in the USA when the accused said: “It’s not me, it’s my brain!” Wow, we've arrived! This means that responsibility for actions is transferred not even to the mind, consciousness, but to the brain - to the brain tissue. How is it my fault that I was born a criminal? If I think about it, I can say: “My genes are bad, I was unlucky with my ancestors.” This is a serious question - and it is by no means artistic.
I once asked my colleagues a question: “Can you name the real number of connections in the brain?” They asked: “Where are you? In the Yusupov Garden area? The series of zeros for this number will last until the Neva.”
Everyone on this planet is related
DNA is suspicious because it means that the life of every creature is a book written in just four letters. Only in ciliates it is tiny, and in humans it is the size of the Library of Congress. Moreover, everyone on this planet is relatives. Humans share 50% of their genes with yeast! Therefore, when you pick up a croissant, remember your grandmother’s face. Not to mention cats and chimpanzees.
Genes are like a piano
You might be lucky in life and get an expensive and good Steinway grand piano from your grandparents. But the trouble is that you have to learn to play it; one instrument is not enough. If you got bad genes, that’s a disaster, but if you got good genes, that’s not the end result. We came into this world with our own neural network, and then throughout our lives we write text on it: what we ate, who we talked to, what we listened to, what we read, what dresses we wore, what brand of lipstick we wore. And when each of us appears before the creator, he will present his text.
There must be a creator here
Scientific activity rather brought me closer to religion. A large number of very important scientists turned out to be religious people. When the conventional Hawking, of blessed memory, sees the complexity of this world, he gets through it in such a way that nothing else simply comes to mind. There must be a creator here. I’m not saying, but saying where this idea comes from. Science does not push away from religion; these are parallel things, not competitors.
What to do with reincarnation
Does consciousness die? We don't know, everyone will find out (or not find out) in their own time. If we assume that consciousness is a product of the brain, then the brain dies—consciousness dies. But not everyone thinks so. Last year we went to the Dalai Lama, and I asked the question: “What are we going to do about reincarnation?” After all, there is no physical medium through which a person can pass - these are not atoms, it’s understandable with them - he died, decomposed, a pear tree grew. But here we are talking about the individual - what is he going through? The Buddhist monks answered us: “You are the scientists, this is your problem. You are looking, we know for sure.” Moreover, you are not talking to half-educated people, but to people who have three thousand years of powerful traditions in the study of consciousness behind them. I got noisy there and asked a completely outrageous question. He was like: “Did you have a Big bang?”, “Did you have a Big Bang?” Only an idiot can ask such a question, because he has either been everywhere or been nowhere. But the answer came: “We didn’t have any. Because the world has always existed, it is an endless river, there is no past, no future, and there is no time at all. What Big Bang? For Buddhists, consciousness is part of the Universe. Does consciousness die? Depends on what position you are in.
Non-human world
There is a fluid, transparent, unstable, ultra-fast, hybrid world around us. We are at a civilizational breakdown - this is not alarmism, but a fact. We have stepped into a different type of civilization - and this has global significance. Therefore, we will have to choose between freedom and security. Do I agree to be wiretapped? No. And to be searched from head to toe at the entrance to the airport? Of course, I’m ready to do anything as long as nothing explodes. The philosopher and writer Stanislav Lem wrote an incredible thing - I’m terribly sorry that I didn’t come up with this word - the world has become inhumane. Not only people, but living beings in general cannot live in the dimension of nanoseconds and nanometers. Meanwhile, artificial intelligence systems are already making decisions, and more will follow. They will do this at such a speed that we will not even be able to notice. We have come to a world in which we should stop, light a fireplace, take a drink in our hand and think, where have we ended up and how will we live in it? The books we read, intelligent conversations, and thinking begin to play a significant, if not decisive, role. When artificial intelligence sees the photo I took of the reflection of water in the sky over the Gulf of Finland, will it understand that it is very beautiful? Is he a person or not? Is man equal? Not yet. But things are moving.
Press service of the lecture hall “Direct Speech”
Don't start teaching your child too early
It is very important for children to start studying on time. The main problem of the modern child is vain parents. When they tell me: “I started my son at two years old,” I answer: “What a fool!” Why is this necessary? At two years old he still cannot do this. His brain is not ready for this. If you train him, he will, of course, read and maybe even write, but you and I have a different task.
In general, children have a huge variation in the speed of development. There is such a term - “age of school maturity”. It is defined as follows: one child is 7 years old and the other is also 7 years old, but one goes to school because his brain is ready for it, and the second needs to play with a teddy bear at home for another year and a half and only then sit down at a desk.
According to official data, more than 40% of our children have difficulties with reading and writing at the end of primary school. And even in the 7th grade there are those who read poorly. In such children, all the cognitive power of the brain is spent trying to get through the letters. Therefore, even if he reads the text, he no longer has the strength to understand the meaning, and any question on the topic will baffle him.
Develop fine motor skills
We are faced with a very difficult task: we are at the junction between a person who wrote from copybooks and read, and a person who reads hypertexts, does not know how to write at all, deals with icons and does not even type texts. It is important to understand that this is a different person and he has a different brain. We adults like this different brain, and we are sure that there is no danger in it. And she is. If a small child, when he comes to school, does not learn to write, getting used to the small filigree movements of the pen, if in kindergarten he does not sculpt anything, does not cut out with scissors, does not sort out beads, then he will not develop skills. And this is exactly what affects speech functions. If you do not develop fine motor skills in your child, then do not complain later that his brain does not work.
Lori.ru
Listen to music and teach your children to do it
Modern neuroscience is actively studying the brain at the time it is affected by music. And we now know that when it occurs at an early age, it greatly affects the structure and quality of the neural network. When we perceive speech, very complex processing of the physical signal occurs. Decibels and intervals hit our ears, but this is all physics. The ear listens, but the brain hears. When a child learns music, he gets used to paying attention to small details, distinguishing sounds and durations from each other. And it is at this time that a fine cut of the neural network is formed.
Don't let your brain get lazy
Not all people on our planet are geniuses. And if a child has bad genes, then nothing can be done about it. But even if it is, this is still not enough. Your grandmother may have given you a magnificent Steinway grand piano, but you have to learn to play it. In the same way, a child can get a wonderful brain, but if it does not develop, form, be limited, tune in - it’s an empty matter, it will die. The brain turns sour if there is no cognitive load. If you lie down on the sofa and lie there for six months, then you will not be able to get up. And exactly the same thing happens to the brain.
I think it’s clear to anyone that if Shakespeare, Mozart, Pushkin, Brodsky and other outstanding artists tried to pass the Unified State Exam, they would have failed. And they would have failed the IQ test. What does this mean? Only that the IQ test is no good, because no one doubts Mozart’s genius except crazy people.
Tatyana Vladimirovna Chernigovskaya
Psycholinguist, neurobiologist, professor at St. Petersburg State University
Don’t train your children only for the Unified State Exam
There is such a cartoon, it depicts animals that have to climb a tree: a monkey, a fish and an elephant. Various creatures, some of which, in principle, cannot climb a tree, however, this is exactly what the modern education system offers us in the form of a subject of our special pride.
Lori.ru
I think this is very harmful. If, of course, we want to prepare people who will work on the assembly line for life, then this is certainly a suitable system. But then we must say: that’s it, we are putting an end to the development of our civilization. We will hold on to Venice as long as possible so that it doesn’t drown, but we don’t need anything new, there are already enough masterpieces, there’s nowhere to put them. But if we want, then this system is the worst thing that could be invented.
Teach boys and girls differently
You need to talk to boys briefly and specifically. For maximum effect, they must be involved in vigorous activity; they simply cannot sit still. They have so much energy that it is best to try to direct it in a peaceful direction, to give an outlet, and... Don't lock them in a small confined space, give them space and room to move. In addition, boys need to be given more real tasks, come up with competitions, and be given fewer boring written assignments; they are of no use. And they definitely need to be praised for every little thing. And here’s another interesting fact: it turns out that boys should be raised in cooler rooms than girls, because otherwise they will simply fall asleep during class.
Girls love to work in a group; they need contact. They look into each other's eyes and love to help the teacher. This is very important: girls do not need to be protected from falls and contamination, they should experience
“In order to understand how the world works, you need to know how the brain works.” Tatyana Vladimirovna Chernigovskaya, a world-famous scientist and professor of the Department of Linguistics, Faculty of Philology, St. Petersburg State University, is sure of this.
Tatyana Chernigovskaya was born in February 1947 in St. Petersburg into an intelligent family, where both parents are scientists. The constant example of service to science demonstrated by dad and mom, as well as studying in the only school in the USSR where teaching was in English, determined the daughter’s future.
After graduating from school, Tatyana Chernigovskaya entered the local university (SPGU), choosing the faculty of English philology. Here the student studied at the Department of Experimental Phonetics. According to Tatyana Vladimirovna, the woman never planned or predicted her own future. She often acted impulsively, as they say, at the call of her soul. Therefore, having received a humanities education, Chernigovskaya went into biology. Until the end of the 90s she worked at the Institute of Evolutionary Physiology and Biochemistry.
The science
In 1977, Tatyana Chernigovskaya defended her Ph.D. thesis, and in 1993, her doctorate. The topic of the dissertation is: “The evolution of linguistic and cognitive functions: physiological and neurolinguistic aspects.” Tatyana Vladimirovna is a doctor of two sciences - biological and philological. She has the title of professor.
The subject of Professor Chernigovskaya's study is extremely subtle and complex. In short, this is the human brain. And if a little broader, then this is psycho- and neurolinguistics. Tatyana Vladimirovna is sure that this subject cannot be studied qualitatively and deeply without mutual enrichment of different fields of science. If the brain is studied only from a medical perspective, then many interesting aspects will be lost from understanding the subject of study. Therefore, in order to deeply explore, as the hero from “The Formula of Love” states, such a “dark” subject as the head, we need not only biology, but also linguistics, psychology, biology, medicine, chemistry and neuroscience.
In 2000, on the initiative and insistence of Tatyana Chernigovskaya, the first specialization in the country called “Psycholinguistics” was opened at the Department of General Linguistics at St. Petersburg State University. The first Russian masters began to be trained under this program.
Today Tatyana Chernigovskaya teaches courses “Psycholinguistics”, “Neurolinguistics” and “Cognitive Processes and the Brain” for undergraduate and graduate students of the philological and medical faculties of St. Petersburg State University, the Faculty of Liberal Arts and Sciences, as well as for graduate students of the European University in St. Petersburg.
The scientific biography of Tatyana Chernigovskaya is a close and fruitful collaboration with a number of institutes of the Russian Academy of Sciences, as well as with universities in Europe and America. Tatyana Vladimirovna is a state scholarship holder of the President of Russia and Fulbright (international exchange program). She is also the head of the St. Petersburg School of Psycholinguistics.
The subjects studied by Professor Tatiana Chernigovskaya are extremely complex. These are the origin of language, its development and pathology, the theory of evolution and artificial intelligence. She has written more than 250 scientific papers on this interesting topic. They are published in both Russian and foreign publications.
Tatyana Vladimirovna has been repeatedly invited and continues to be invited as a lecturer at major universities in the USA and Europe.
Tatyana Vladimirovna’s lectures are available not only to students of specialized specialties. Tatyana Chernigovskaya also gives public lectures in the “Direct Speech” lecture hall.
Viewers were able to see and hear the famous scientist after a series of programs aired on the “Culture” channel. Tatyana Chernigovskaya hosted a series of popular science programs on the “Culture” channel: “Starry Sky of Thinking”, “Let’s Show a Mirror to Nature...”, “Meeting at the Top”, “Observer”, “Rules of Life” and others. Particularly rated were the cycles called “The Starry Sky of Thinking” and “Let’s Show a Mirror to Nature.”
Also particularly popular was the lecture “How to teach the brain to learn?”. With this material, Tatyana Chernigovskaya appeared on the air of the “Rules of Life” program, in the “Direct Speech” lecture, and also participated with her in a number of scientific and educational festivals.
Tatyana Chernigovskaya also appeared on the Petersburg - Channel Five TV channel, where she hosted the “Intelligence” section in the “Night” program. Subsequently, the section was transformed into a series of original programs “Night. Intelligence. Chernigovskaya".
A complete list of TV shows, lectures and interviews is posted on the official website of Tatyana Chernigovskaya. Attached to the list are links to videos of the scientist’s speeches, which were recorded and posted on the Internet.
In January 2010, a decree of the President of the Russian Federation was issued, by which Professor Tatyana Chernigovskaya was awarded the title “Honored Scientist of the Russian Federation.”
Personal life
Tatyana Chernigovskaya devoted a number of scientific works to the upbringing of bilingual children, the development of children’s cognitive skills and the rehabilitation of children with speech disorders, but the press knows nothing about Tatyana Vladimirovna’s own children. Journalists don’t even know whether the professor even has children and a husband.
Tatyana Vladimirovna Chernigovskaya loves to relax in the forest or on the ocean coast. Here Tatyana Vladimirovna finds herself in the environment where a woman is most comfortable. Tatyana Chernigovskaya also loves to observe the behavior of her own pet - a cat of the British breed. According to the owner, this creature understands a woman without words. They have a telepathic connection.
Tatyana Chernigovskaya admits with a smile that she is somewhat of a snob and an esthete. The woman reads books only in paper, not electronic versions. Tatyana Vladimirovna likes to hold it in her hands, feel the texture of the pages under her fingers and “inhale” the unique “book” aroma.
Tatyana Chernigovskaya’s personal life is, in addition to all of the above, listening to classical music and visiting the theater. The professor considers simple human joys, such as delicious food and good wine, to be the source of pleasure. And the woman is also sure that the scientist’s native era is the bygone 19th century.
Tatyana Chernigovskaya now
In April 2016, television viewers had the opportunity to hear Tatyana Vladimirovna’s most interesting arguments in the popular program. The subject of conversation is the structure of our brain. In a conversation with the TV presenter, Tatyana Chernigovskaya touched on a number of questions that concern TV viewers: how the human brain functions, whether science will ever be able to thoroughly explain this, how the brain and personality interact, what is the superiority of the brain over the computer.
In 2017, Tatyana Chernigovskaya received another recognition of her own scientific activities. The Russian Academy of Sciences nominated Tatyana Vladimirovna for a Gold Medal for outstanding achievements in the field of dissemination of scientific knowledge. In the same year, Tatyana Chernigovskaya became the winner of the Gold Medal in the Life Science category.
Awards and achievements
- 1977 – defended her Ph.D. thesis
- 1993 – defended her doctoral dissertation “Evolution of linguistic and cognitive functions: physiological and neurolinguistic aspects”
- 2000 - on the initiative and insistence of Tatyana Chernigovskaya, the first specialization in the country called “Psycholinguistics” was opened at the Department of General Linguistics of St. Petersburg State University
- 2006 - elected foreign member of the group of philosophy and philology of the section of humanities and social sciences of the Norwegian Academy of Sciences
- 2010 - by decree of the President of the Russian Federation, Tatyana Vladimirovna Chernigovskaya was awarded the honorary title “Honored Scientist of the Russian Federation”
- 2017 – laureate of the RAS Gold Medal for outstanding achievements in the field of promotion of scientific knowledge in the Life Sciences category
Nikolay Uskov: Because I am a historian, I am concerned with the history of the brain, not just its current state. Homo sapiens appeared on our earth 40 thousand years ago, and civilization - writing, state, culture - somewhere around the third millennium BC. What did Homo sapiens do for so long? For 37 thousand years we don’t know what happened to his brain.
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: Firstly, you are an optimist if you believe that Homo sapiens has emerged. I personally have no evidence that this actually happened. But jokes aside, the question of time is very difficult. Naturally, there are no documents and there cannot be any, which means it’s only that someone was dug up. They dig up all the time. None of those whose remains were taken to specialists have homo sapiens written on their foreheads. Of course, you will be right if you say that there are anatomical features and brain volume. But, let's say, Neanderthals had a larger brain than homo sapiens. Therefore, there were other players on this field. Homo sapiens, Neanderthals, homo altaensis, Denisovan man, who was discovered in Altai - this story is changing all the time. I think that this is not 37 thousand years at all, but 370 thousand. We don’t know the main things and will never know. For example, where is the genius who invented the spoon or the needle? Very fragmentary information has reached us.
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Nowadays genetics plays the first fiddle. A few years ago, at lectures to students, I said that we are not particularly interested in Neanderthals, because this is a dead-end branch, they are not relatives to us: bastards, illegitimate children, and in general - what do we care about them. Now it is no longer possible to say that, because the Neanderthal genome and the human genome have been sequenced. Genetics work very seriously, there is objective and accurate data about who is related to whom, and who is related to whom - a dead-end branch. It turns out that all of these are our relatives, which is scary.
Nikolay Uskov: You spare the audience. You need to present a table of human evolution, where a Neanderthal and then a homo sapiens are drawn from school biology textbooks. Imagine that your neighbor in the stairwell is a Neanderthal.
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: A few years ago I walked past the Mariinsky Theater and saw a Neanderthal alive. He was dressed like us, he had a huge forehead, large scary brow ridges. Moreover, he was fertile, because he was carrying a stroller with two babies. So they are truly among us.
All jokes aside, there are some genes that are probably human. For example, one has to do with language and communication, in its specific modification. Its human version is found in Denisovan man or Neanderthal man and is, say, two hundred thousand years old - which means that this creature could have a language. Do you understand what the problem is? In our country, the time of the emergence of human language is constantly being pushed back; it is becoming more and more ancient. Recently they said 20 thousand years, then 30, then 50, now if they tell me 250, I won’t even flinch. Why am I using my tongue? Because the presence of language is our biological feature.
Man is not the one who has no tail, feathers and fur, and walks on two legs, but also the one who speaks. We had no data about who said what and when, but now they began to appear. Indirect, but still. And then this extends our human history, perhaps by many thousands of years.
Nikolay Uskov: Then this works for the thesis of your compatriot Alexander Nevzorov, who repeats all the time: the human brain is so insignificant that for so many thousands of years it could not create some simple thing, for example, a lighter. After these three thousand years, the third millennium BC, when civilization appeared, almost five thousand more years passed before the lighter appeared.
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: Nevzorov is a bully! He loves spectacular expressions, it’s just shocking, but we understand that the lighter has nothing to do with it. There are many different possible answers to your questions. For example, time has accelerated very much. Literally, almost months pass, if we speak in terms of a lighter, then gadgets appear that three months ago did not exist at all. That is, we are rushing somewhere at gigantic speed and, I repeat, this speed is growing. If we return to the topic of human language, the emergence of 10 words took thousands of years. It went very slowly. What was the man doing? Survived! I did what I could. We cannot make claims against our biological ancestors because that is how the world works.
About swearing
Nikolay Uskov: Tatyana Vladimirovna, can I alternate such scientific questions with human ones. Over tea we found out that we both love to swear, some even know about it. Why do people swear?
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: Yes, I don’t deny it, I own it, I don’t see anything absolutely wrong with it. Moreover, you and I agreed that this is a very serious language, a masterfully constructed code, because there are only five players: four nouns and one verb. And they can express everything. What a gigantic world is opening up! Not to mention the emotional part of it. This is a huge gateway. You open a completely different door and let out all these demons that would otherwise lead you to a psychiatrist.
Nikolay Uskov: Well, what is the function of swearing in the Russian language, from the point of view of science?
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: This is a separate special culture. I take this seriously. Just don't read it literally. We're talking about something completely different. The Russians managed to come up with such an incredible thing. This is also in other languages. In my opinion, in Slovak. I don’t even know if it can be called a language, but rather a culture. There is generally a hierarchy there. When they swear, they start, almost blaspheming, as if from the very top, and then slowly go down and hit the person to whom it was addressed.
Nikolay Uskov: But still, why exactly in Russian culture has swearing taken the position of counterculture, while in others taboo words are mastered by civilization after some time and no longer carry such an abusive connotation.
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: There are some cultural prohibitions. I don't really think I'm the right person to answer this question. And it would have to be asked to the famous philologist Boris Andreevich Uspensky. Or Yuri Mikhailovich Lotman would have been able to answer the question, although he himself did not use this language. This is not a joke at all. You see, when men stand on the street, drink beer and insert swear words through every word as interjections, this is completely different. We're not talking about linguistic garbage. We are talking about some extraordinary move in creating such a parallel language. And this is interesting.
About life expectancy
Nikolay Uskov: Another topic that probably interests a lot of people right now is the sudden increase in life expectancy. Everyone knows that our civilization is on the eve of a major biotechnological and medical revolution. Many scientists say that soon 140 years will be the real life span for the next generations. How will our lives change, and what will we occupy our brains for so long?
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: Yes, this really can happen. But the question is, who to live as? If the quality of an eggplant is 50 years old, then I don’t think anyone will find such a prospect attractive. In what condition can I be preserved, so that it is a full life, so that my head works, so that it is not Alzheimer’s? Medical jokes on the topic “not everyone lives to see their Alzheimer’s”, we decipher it so that it will happen one hundred percent, but you may be lucky and go to your forefathers before it comes. This is where the question arises of what quality you will live in. Will it be a full life or will it be canned food that just sits there and that’s it. Nobody needs this.
Let's assume that we were lucky and we somehow overcame this matter, but besides Alzheimer, there are other players in this field. For example, Parkinson's disease, cardiovascular diseases, cancer. But mental illness comes first. Recently, I was at a rather serious meeting, and it was said that Americans want to declare an epidemic of mental illness. Not in the sense that now it is, and then it will not be, but there was a squall. Depression and schizophrenia are beginning to take first place.
Nikolay Uskov: Well, I may have such an amateurish explanation. I attribute the increase in depression, midlife crises and other various bad conditions to the fact that people have more free time to think about everything.
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: Yes this is correct…
Nikolay Uskov: Because our very recent ancestor was simply busy fighting for survival. Famine in Europe ended at the beginning of the 19th century, and in Russia it raged even after that until the second half of the 20th century and it was a serious food problem. As we have free time, we have questions. And the future with life expectations of 140 years does not bode well, because a significant part of our occupations will be transferred to artificial intelligence, for example, the same profession of a driver will soon simply die in the near future, a programmer too. In general, these are questions of the near future. Do you agree that this is due to free time?
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: Yes, I agree, but I have a few comments about this. Firstly, I am not a doctor, but I have worked quite a lot in psychiatry and continue to collaborate with psychiatrists, so I have my bearings, although, of course, I do not treat anyone. Mental illnesses are unevenly distributed across the planet. People living in different geographic areas are not affected equally. The further north you go, the more dangerous it is for the population to fall into such states. This has both a genetic and biochemical basis. That is, they simply have a different ratio of serotonin and dopamine than those who live, relatively speaking, in the south of Italy.
There is still an insoluble question here. Is it because things are so bad for them because it’s very dark, like in our city, and they don’t get enough sun? Or has it accumulated over all these centuries, millennia. The genome is like this, this is how things work with this serotonin. We can, for example, turn to Scandinavian cinema. Remember Bergman's films and what happens there. Absolutely all the participants there are crazy, which does not take away from the highest class of what is happening. This kind of picture cannot appear in Italy or Spain.
About idleness. They are writing about this now, there is even a term that says that a “civilization of idleness” is coming. What's the plan? Cars are driven, planes are driven, and everything is driven by artificial intelligence; factories operate on their own. What does the world's population do? The answer to this is that some play the lute, others write sonnets...
Nikolay Uskov: Especially truck drivers.
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: Yes, truck drivers, housewives, they all write sonnets and play the lute. But we understand that in reality all this is absolutely not true. The opposite things will happen. Everyone will drink deeply, the rest will start smoking immoderately and stabbing each other with pitchforks. People will be paid money so that they do not die of hunger. And of course this is a serious big problem in which there is no question of any sonnets. It is recognized by people who think professionally about this topic.
About cyborgs and preservation of personality
Nikolay Uskov: But from the point of view of survival, how can we not go crazy with this huge time, with this completely new life?
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: You know, when I look at the books at home that cover my entire living space, I even get kind of angry at them. Because I’ll be dead for a long time, and they’ll still be standing here, and I’ll never read them. Simply because I will never have time again. Firstly, you can still read more books, hear more music, see more paintings, or at least their reproductions, if for some reason you can’t travel. I don't see such a problem. How many wines have not been drunk...
But we cannot make correct predictions. Firstly, because all of humanity has gone crazy. I see this very clearly. We need a serious psychiatrist for the whole planet. Because you tell them that this is a glass, and they tell you, “No, this is the Andromeda nebula.” That is, we all see different things. Completely inappropriate behavior - we draw the wrong conclusions. Secondly, you shouldn’t think that nothing will happen and that some virus won’t appear that will kill everyone. And the efforts of those who arrange for us to have 140 years of potential life will be in vain, because some small thing might start up and destroy all of humanity. I wouldn't be so optimistic.
In addition, there is another line, quite serious, which evokes humorous feelings and even irritation in me. There are several movements that plan to record everything that we have accumulated in the neural network and transfer it to silicone media, thus providing us with immortality. That is, the grandson comes, takes a flash drive, and grandfather’s life is on it. He turns it on and lives for himself.
Nikolay Uskov: I wouldn’t want to share my life with my grandson like that...
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: Everything is fine, it doesn’t threaten anyone, because everything needs to be recorded there, including the body. The taste of lipstick, how your heel itches, how to sneeze when you want, that is, everything! At what point will we record? One second before death? So then the brain is already damaged. That is, it’s all crap, people are just siphoning off money.
What is possible, and this is already very close, is what McLuhan wrote about. He said that the next biological species is a “homosapiens autocreator.” That is, a self-created person. It's about cyborgs. And this is not Hollywood cheapness at all, this is serious. It is possible to insert chips into your head that will make biochemical processes in the brain faster, insert a chip into your head that will increase your memory and make your brain better, this is possible now and may happen in the coming years.
Bottom line: the liver, eaten by cirrhosis from excessive consumption of different types of wines, can be replaced with a new one, which will be grown from your stem cells. This is real, not a joke or a metaphor. It is also possible to replace a heart now; arms and legs broken in Courchevel can easily be replaced. Eyes ears. Do you have anything of your own? Is this still me?
This is a serious eschatological question. The creature that was Masha Ivanov. Ivanova. By the way, an interesting disclaimer. I said this by accident, but... You see, everything changes. We face the prospect of a world in which everything is different. Is there personality stability, is there gender stability, and does this personality exist at all?
I hate social networks, although I appear on them, but it’s someone else doing it there, not me. And now how can I prove that it’s not me. The person you are corresponding with, is he really a real person or is he a phantom and is he alone? Or is it a program that represents a million personalities, and there is no person at all? Where is he located? Does he have a place, a time, does he have an address, does he have an identity? Does he have a name? This is something that has now begun to be written about, but there is no popular talk yet. It’s like in popular science literature about artificial intelligence and it’s called the liquid world, when everything has spread out and moved apart.
Another interesting story begins - the Internet of Things. This is what it's about. The refrigerator, that vile creature, knows that I love this kind of cheese, but I’m out of it. This refrigerator, he is a person, makes sure that the cheese does not run out. He won’t let me sink to such a low level: he’ll call whoever needs it and they’ll agree on when, where, and what to bring. Jokes aside, I mean that things begin to take on a life of their own. It's about the rise of the machines. You must understand that you are already caught. We lost this story. Each of us has a sophisticated phone in our pocket. They know what you ate, who you were with in the restaurant, what you are allergic to - absolutely everything! We may find ourselves in a world in which we have no place. I am an alarmist, and I don’t hide it.
Nikolay Uskov: Can I argue a little? You have already said that our neural system is still like a complex computer, but at the same time, the characteristics of this brain, this most powerful computer, are still very competitive. We are still a very economical car. Whereas a supercomputer, some kind of cloud, needs gigantic energy. If a supercomputer is going to be the same fuel-efficient machine, then we should worry.
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: We should be worried because we find ourselves in a somewhat absurd situation because we are forced to study ourselves. And even worse: your brain, which is more complex than us. I've set a trap for myself now! And it lies in the fact that I and my brain are different characters. And to such a question, which I have been asked a thousand times, I am forced to answer yes. Forced. Not because it’s shocking, but because the brain is so terribly complex that I don’t yet see any prospects for us to be able to find out how it works. In order to make a machine that consumes not the city's energy, but 10 watts of energy, you need to know how it will work. So far, nothing has worked out for us.
But as a professional, I want to say that a huge amount of money in the world is now spent on projects related to the brain. Why is this so? We all understand perfectly well that no one would give a cent if it weren’t so important. The one who wins this game will be an absolutely unattainable king for everyone. This will change everything, all history. We are now in the process of buying higher and higher resolution magnifiers. Something different is needed here. I'm tired of saying this, but I have to say it again. A genius must be born who will look at all this horror and say that they are approaching this from the wrong side. There must be a different paradigm. Yes, we have a computer in our heads, but not the one that everyone has in their bag or on their desk. This is completely different. Part of him is like that and it is, relatively speaking, left-hemisphere. These are algorithmic procedures, a metaphor for this is a computer that chases ones and zeros. But we have another part - it’s a supercomputer, analog, we don’t know what it is or how it works.
If it turns out that the computer, the cloud, it doesn’t matter, recognizes itself as “I”, as a person, this means that it will have its own plans and we may not be included in these plans. Given their power, they will knock us out in three minutes. I'm scaring you on purpose!
Nikolay Uskov: But who will plug them into the socket?
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: Yes, they themselves will. They will arrange photosynthesis for themselves, they will feed on solar energy, and whatever they want. And we will have fun with our oil needle until we get tired of it...
About women and the male brain
Nikolay Uskov: In Russia, almost all financial directors and accountants are women. That is, the people who manage the finances of all the richest companies are women. What do you think is the reason for this?
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: I'll start from afar. I often get asked questions about the differences between male and female brains. They are different, but not in the way they say in the popular environment. It is usually noted that women have smaller brains, but size has nothing to do with it.
They collect brains from outstanding people who have passed on to another world. These outstanding brains are not particularly large at all. Sick people have especially large brains! It's about the quality of the brain. Men have far fewer connections between different parts of the brain within each hemisphere. I think this is because of the primary female role in evolution. The offspring must be protected. This means that you can’t argue with everyone, you need to be able to negotiate. The woman is a good negotiator. I would say that the female brain works more efficiently. This is the first part of the story. But extreme things are much stronger in the male brain. If he’s a fool, then he’s such a fool that you still need to look for other women. If a genius is, then, of course, a man. There are very few outstanding women. For example, feminists. Once in New York, among such women, out of my stupidity, I launched into a discussion. They all attacked me, saying that they were not given free rein and so on. But if we were given free rein, we would become so many Mozarts, Beethovens and Schopenhauers. They gave us freedom a long time ago! So where are they? I don't see something.
It is clear that you can list all the most famous women, but their number is still very small. So I think there was a very strong selection of great women. They really got out, pushing aside all the forests and bushes.
Nikolay Uskov: Do you think a woman thinks better?
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: No, I do not think so. Why does she even need to count? The iron monster will count everything for her. I would say that a woman should see a more gestalt picture. That is, she doesn’t do three plus two better, she just sees more widely: those things that are placed highly and masterfully, a man may not see them.
Nikolay Uskov: Are women more patient than men?
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: I don't think so. I'm not an expert in this area. Therefore, I will answer this way: many years ago, at our house there was a famous Moscow psychologist, a specialist in extreme medicine. We discussed the issue of making a woman the Minister of Defense in Russia. Despite the fact that he is a person who treats many things with humor, he was blown up. He said that if such and such a woman were made Minister of Defense, she would sweep away all of Europe, including Iceland. Any specialist in criminal psychology will tell you that if a woman has already taken the criminal path, she is terribly cruel, and nothing stops her. Therefore, it is a myth that all women are soft and gentle creatures.
About education
Nikolay Uskov: Gender topics in themselves are interesting, but there is another very important point. We are completely losing some aspects of our culture, such as reading, the transfer of knowledge from father to son, the book has faded into the background, communications have become virtual. When I was a child, I burned garbage dumps, and my son only started leaving the house when he had a girlfriend. Apparently, it no longer worked on the Internet. How to deal with this, what awaits us? Or maybe they will find some way to receive the same knowledge that we received?
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: Everyone agrees that we have already entered some completely new type of civilization. Whether this is good or bad is even useless to discuss. These are completely different speeds. Recently I learned such a new word as “non-human world”. That is, the speeds at which everything goes are nanoseconds, the distance is nanometers, and living creatures do not live in these worlds. This is a microworld and we have fallen into it. The war will be won or lost by the monsters who live in these worlds and, perhaps, we will not even have time to see it. We have found ourselves in a world that is disproportionate to us and we do not know what to do with it. How can we be in it? Nicholas Carr writes that he used to be an artificial diver, diving deep into knowledge, slowly, and now he is an artificial surfer who rushes along the surface at great speed and does not even have time to dive deeper.
Now it’s a completely different world, people don’t know how to read linearly long texts. Physics department professors gave their selective students a problem written not in formulas, but in words, and they could not solve it. This is the intellectual elite who are not able to read a small piece of text. Schoolchildren do not comprehend text more than one page, and we play along with this. When a child reads digests on Crime and Punishment, it’s completely different. Dostoevsky did not write this. Yes, this is very difficult literature, a child cannot read it, but then this means that all classical literature should be removed from the curriculum, which is crazy.
Nikolay Uskov: Maybe they'll read this later?
Tatiana Chernigovskaya: If this is within their area of interest. Why read at all? If these are only pragmatists, then this does not fall into the realm of usefulness. People often ask me if I use e-books. Of course, I use it to read numerous dissertations and papers and not carry all this weight in my bag. It's just convenient. But I’m a snob, so I want to feel real literature with my hands, the cover is important to me, how the book smells is important, etc. It’s aesthetics. But I understand that this will be for special people.
In this regard, I am concerned about the issue of education. Already now I see how it will split into two completely different poles. This is an elitist, very complex and very expensive education; there is a middle ground, but it is not enough. All these technical skills, what are educational services? Is this something about manicurists? Education is completely different, it is Aristotle, Plato. If education is about how to turn on the coffee maker, then this is different.
Elena Anisimova
